Real Conservative Values

One of the more preposterous things I see many on the lefty blogosphere post about is how George Bush is not a "real" conservative. In making this argument, many bloggers go on to cite the supposed conservative values that George Bush does not represent. These values go something like this:
  • "Real" conservatives value fiscal responsibility and solvency, but George Bush does not

  • "Real" conservatives value personal liberties, but George Bush does not.

  • "Real" conservatives are not interested in overseas adventurism, especially without the help of our allies, but George Bush does not.
To all of this I say hogwash. George Bush is a self-proclaimed conservative. In this election, 84% of those people who identify as conservatives voted for George Bush, thereby endorsing his policies. I say, and my Catholic upbringing says, that your actions are your beliefs, and there is no difference between the two. Considering this, it is time to face some facts:
  • Real conservatives value fiscal insolvency, including irresponsible tax cuts, corporate giveaways, massive spending increases, huge undisclosed pork-barrel spending projects hammered out during congressional conference, rather than actual budget legislation on the Congressional floor that is open to the public and recorded in the public record. You know that conservatives value these things, because these are the things the vast majority of self-proclaimed conservatives do.

  • Real conservatives do not value your personal liberties. They like disenfranchising voters, challenging voters, and making it more difficult to vote. They like it when the government is in your bedroom. They want to be able to spy on your personal files. They do not respect your right to privacy. They like to tell you who you can and cannot love, and what you can and cannot do to your own body. You know these are conservative values, because conservatives regularly pass laws of this nature.

  • Real conservatives like to recklessly use the military They love war, and regularly resort to it as one of their first choices. They have no respect for the lives their policies destroy, as long as they have more bases overseas. They derive their values from violence, and detest peace. They will come up with any excuse possible, and cynically invent several more, to use force whenever possible, wherever possible. You know these are conservative values, because these are the actions conservatives take.
Real conservatives are bloodthirsty, reckless with our tax money, and want to tell you how to live your life. They are intolerant, warmongering and irresponsible. You know these are real conservatives values, because you can find anyone's beliefs in what they do, not what they say.

Tags: Ideology (all tags)



Let's ram this message home into the press for the
next 4 years.  Assuming they would actually listen of course.  
by LionelEHutz 2004-11-07 05:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Let's ram this message home
It's a simple message: conservatives don't do what they say. But the media are not very good at pointing out obvious truths. They're going to need a lot of prodding.
by Bob Violence 2004-11-07 07:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Let's ram this message home ...
They will only listen when Rush Limbaugh (RL), et al are off the air.  I have a way of removing those conservative windbags.  

I'm organizing people to identify the advertisers of RL.  I'll startup a website with business names and phone numbers of those advertisers.  We will need a grassroots campaign (one million plus) to boycott those advertisers that "promote hate", "don't value truth", "don't value liberty", etc.   We'll also encourage each interested individual to make a daily phone call to each business to tell them that they are boycotting the business.  We will only stop the boycott when they pull their advertising.

Stay tuned...

by uvajeD Again 2004-11-08 06:34AM | 0 recs
Re: Let's ram this message home ...
I'm delighted to see this. Tried a similar effort about three or four years ago and very few wanted to take action, saying "naw, it needs too many of us to have an effect."  

Hopefully this time the nay-sayers will have converted and will actually quit buying specific products and services in addition to letting corporations know what we're doing.  Important:  when writing to them, cite specific divisive words and phrases RL has used and give the context.  Be honest, don't over-do it.  

You don't have to listen more than about ten minutes to get enough ammunition to shock.  He's been quite rapid lately.

by Bean 2004-11-08 08:53AM | 0 recs
Re: Let's ram this message home ...
I think a key way to sell that, without being obviously partisan, is to demand truth and facts, not lies and inuendo.

"Why are you supporting right-wingers?" is more defendable (free speech) than, "Why are you supporting liars?  Everyone should stick to journalistic standards.

by beeste 2004-11-08 09:35AM | 0 recs
And let's not forget the "states' rights" thing either.  We have been listening for the better part of a half-century to the pissing and moaning of "conservatives" about the fact that they think the Federal Gummint is exerting too much control over a lot of issues that are better left to the states.  However, now that the Dark Side controls every branch of said Big Gummint, I have no doubt that the conservative position is about to do a 180 and find itself mighty comfortable with the notion of an assertive Federal government.
by global yokel 2004-11-07 06:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Conservatives
They already have abandoned states' rights.  The Bush v. Gore was federalist, all the rules overturning California's environmental laws are an abandonment of states' rights.  States' rights was always just an excuse and never a real principle.
by Christopher 2004-11-08 01:48AM | 0 recs
Bush has left the Constitution undefended
Strike that--he is actively attacking it.

There's a terrific opportunity here for the Democrats.

by Ottnott 2004-11-07 06:38PM | 0 recs
Re: Bush has left the Constitution undefended
Yes--it's time for us to go back to basics and start  talking about being the party of the Constitution and not the party of the Bible.
by Christopher 2004-11-08 01:53AM | 0 recs
Re: Bush has left the Constitution undefended
Hell Yes!

We need to leave the 2nd amendment the hell alone, but this is a huge winner out west.  I live in Red County California, and even though they voted for the smirking chimp, many of my co-workers worry about the Patriot Act and Theocracy.

Some one else coined the term Liberaltarians.  

And we pound on economic opportunity and affordable education for all.

by beeste 2004-11-08 09:37AM | 0 recs
Re: Bush has left the Constitution undefended
Yes--the perfect opportunity to split them down the middle.  The moderates and the right-wingers are already at each other's throats just a nudge or two and they go over the cliff.  

I sense a repeat of 1992 in 2008.  The Mountain West votes Reform Party, the coasts vote Democrat, and the South goes Republican.  Guess who wins?

by Christopher 2004-11-08 10:59AM | 0 recs
Now that's reframing the issue
Absolutely, exactly what Lakoff is talking about. George Bush and the Real Conservatives are tearing down their own house and we should help them. Now that Pat Buchanan is a moderate? in the Republican party we need to hang the Bush legacy of what a real conservative is on their party for the next fifty years.
by Gary Boatwright 2004-11-07 07:36PM | 0 recs
Dang-it, Chris...'re taking away our wedge issue. George Bush, the neocons, and the faux-Christian portions of republican demographics are not interested in conserving ANYTHING! (well, except their right to do whatever it is they want to do, anyway)

...therefore they are not traditional conservatives - hence the moniker "neo-con" to differentiate.

The swinger/moderate repubs are the people that we want to keep the reminder in front of. The "not-conservative-meme," combined with the, "if-anyone-is-not-moral-it's-GOP-leadership-meme" will add up to an explanation / ready-maded-talking-points as the evidence on the Bush admin's trackrecord mounts. Hang em' with their own claimed principles, make em accountable.

Political Physics
by cgilbert01 2004-11-07 07:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Dang-it, Chris...
I am puzzled as to what a traditional conservative is because I don't think there are any left,(or they are all in hiding).  And while Bush and company are in charge and calling themselves conservative, we should take them at their word.  
by BlueAndProud 2004-11-07 08:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Dang-it, Chris...
...that's fine I guess, but then we lose our wedge-issue. If we're abandoning holding people to what they say, claim, and promise then I don't know what's left for us then. Just to call them "assholes" or to just shoot ourselves, I guess. Don't know how well either of those will play in the electorate, but it's probably worth a try.  ;-)

Political Physics
by cgilbert01 2004-11-07 08:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Dang-it, Chris...
Expain, please.  How would we lose our wedge issue?  I think if we hold them to their definition of "conservative", we are making them accountable for their own definition.  Could that not be the wedge issue?  By presenting them with a "Good Works", or an equivalent we give those folks an alternative way to define themselves.
by BlueAndProud 2004-11-08 08:07AM | 0 recs
Re: Dang-it, Chris...
Clarification:  By "those folks" I mean those who don't agree with the current lot in power but identify with them because they call themselves "conservative".
by BlueAndProud 2004-11-08 09:12AM | 0 recs
Re: Dang-it, Chris...
It's the difference in distinguishing the leadership from the followers that have been tricked and lied to. We have to let the followers keep their word, "conservative". They'll fight to the death for that, but they can be convinced to boot people who are dirtying their word/image.

Hate the sin not sinner, and attack the party leadership for their "false rhetoric" not the party members for their idealism. Invite the "everyday" repubs and their "true conservative" values and morals into our big tent, away from those who would bastardize their morals and values to increase their own power and profits. There is no future in isolationism. We cannot convince a whole country to become "liberal" overnight.

Political Physics
by cgilbert01 2004-11-08 09:30AM | 0 recs
Re: Dang-it, Chris...
I hear what you're saying, but I don't hate the sinner, I just want to give them an alternative to turn to.  Bush pere was succesful in demonizing the "L" word and convincing many Americans that it was synonymous with Democrats, ie: it is bad to be a Democrat. I am glad we are all discussing this.  It's being discussed on the KOS site, too.  Maybe we can all come to an understanding on how to proceed on this.
by BlueAndProud 2004-11-08 10:04AM | 0 recs
Re: Dang-it, Chris...
"I hear what you're saying, but I don't hate the sinner, I just want to give them an alternative to turn to."
Two-thumbs up, BlueAndProud...
by cgilbert01 2004-11-08 10:31AM | 0 recs
That's about it
If you look at who puts the economy in drive, and who puts it in park or reverse, it's the real conservatives who do the reversing.  They love to look through your windows and be the nanny, and they just hate kids and old people.  If you look at their policies, these facts cannot be denied.
by QrazyQat 2004-11-07 09:04PM | 0 recs
Been Like This Since Reagan
Conservatives had been able to win national elections  since 1932 because their worldview was too dark. Liberals were the optomists. So, with Reagan, conservatives changed their beliefs--and not simply in the trivial way that he was both divorced and an actor (conservatives have hated actors probably since ancient Greece.) They still continue to claim their old beliefs, such as fiscal discipline, of course. But as Chris says, their actions betrayed them.

In a sense, the most fundamental belief they betrayed is almost never remarked on. They are the ones who always go on about grimly facing reality--the reality principle, not the pleasure principle, as Freud would say. But from Reagan to Bush II they have only grown more and more divorced from reality.

At the same time, some of the supposed contradictions are not new at all.  Real conservatives have never valued personal liberties for those unlike themselves.  Individual conservatives have, perhaps, but the conservative tradition has always been hierarchical, and those lower down have always been regarded as dangerous, and not to be trusted with liberty.  And they've long been split on "overseas adventurism" in several different ways.

For one thing, as whole conservatives were never shy about getting involved in Asia, just as they were never enthusiastic about getting involved in Europe. Just after WWII, they opposed NATO, and showed zero willingness to fight communism in Europe, rather than in, say, the State Department. But they screamed "TREASON!" over the Democrats failure to spill American blood to save Chiang Kai-shek.

by Paul Rosenberg 2004-11-07 10:46PM | 0 recs
Quite honestly
I think that they are extremely shelfish. "I've got mine, now you get yours".

They are scared, just as most people are, of the uncertain future and are doing everything in their power to make sure that they and thier loved ones are taken care of.

What people fail to realize or are too afraid to attempt is that separately we will all fail, together, we have a chance.

It sucks to pay taxes. Unfair that some can 'sit around all day and do nothing' (even though they may have a good reason, like being disabled).

But in order to have a 'safe' community, we have to help each other and if people aren't willing to give their time, then they should give their money.

It's very sad...

by galtkid 2004-11-07 11:08PM | 0 recs
I don't entirely agree
Certainly Republican leadership is not Conservative in the classic "values/fiscal soundness" model. They were happy to preach Balanced Budget Amendments while stuffing pork into appropriations bills, with preaching Family Values while cheating on their second wives, blasting gays at every opportunity while not hesitating to hire them to staff their offices. This all worked while they were not in total control.

But there are a whole lot of Economic Conservatives who do care about fiscal sanity, and a (somewhat hyped but admittedly large) number of Social Conservatives that are waiting for a delivery on their own agenda. And they are getting impatient. Just check out the Dobson vs Spector affair. Add the growing rumbles to leash the Neo-Cons.

Much of this was suppressed post 9/11 and in the perceived imperative to re-elect the President. But now a lot of people who have been looking at Bush and having what they want to see in him reflecting back are going to have a rude awakening. They are going to be calling on "Conservative" leadership to deliver what those leaders know can't be done. You simply cannot combine perma-war, tax cuts and a balanced budget. You cannot satisfy all the (non box-turtle) related needs of Santorum without driving a lot of tolerant, yet greedy Economic Conservatives right out of the party.

84% of self-identified Conservatives don't really support the actual policies and life-styles of the Republican leadership in Washington. They have just been sleepwalking since 1980 and projecting their dreams onto Gingrich and Bush. We just need to give them a wake-up call and then let the infighting begin.

by Bruce Webb 2004-11-07 11:33PM | 0 recs
I agree with you, Bruce
Chris, you've gone off the deep end here.  If 84% of
conservatives voted for Bush, that means 16% did not.  If that number had been 20%, we're looking at a Kerry win today.  That means there are some, but not enough, conservatives who actually had the courage of their convictions and the ability to see through the Bush propaganda.

What is the point of this diatribe?  That Kerry ran too far to the right?  I don't think so.  That now we must lurch to the left?  I disagree.  If all you're saying is that we shouldn't lurch to the right, which I do agree with, you've picked a strange way to say it.

by sTiVo 2004-11-08 02:29AM | 0 recs
Re: I agree with you, Bruce
It's not left vs. right.  Our overall policy is fine, we've been pigeonholed into position.  If the goal is to help poor people, to build a middle class, to fix past discrimination, to have cost effective education, we are in great shape.  But saying that any race gets special treatment hurts.

We need to reach out to red-state american without losing our base.  One way is the new California policy of bringing the top 10% of all high school graduates to the UC system.  This covers the disparity of rich and private schools offering better programs than poor, primarily minority schools.  It also covers Rural America, because while I love rural living, the school programs are limited.  This type of win-win solution covers a weakness and reaches out.

Renewable energy is jobs for rural americans.

Think about solving problems for all americans, not positions, and we can win a sustainable, liveable future.

by beeste 2004-11-08 09:45AM | 0 recs
I personally know two conservative repubs who voted for Kerry.  FWIW.
by sarany 2004-11-08 03:19AM | 0 recs
and furthermore...
I think we should give credit to those repubs who were uncomfortable enough with Bush to cross party lines and vote Kerry.  And we should be figuring out how to convince some more of them, not heaping scorn on the notion that there is such an animal as a 'real conservative.'

The people who consider themselves real conservatives who voted Kerry will be wearing that as a badge of pride when Bush barges ahead on all the policies they despise. Let's keep on welcoming these folks!

by sarany 2004-11-08 03:25AM | 0 recs
to add.  Bravo.
by fred 2004-11-08 03:35AM | 0 recs
Wholeheartedly Agree
I agree completely with all of the post... but of course this won't fly in a broad way since most Americans are so completely clueless and out of touch.

Over the weekend I over heard a conversation between two twenty somethings and was astonished. It all made more sense when I heard them. They sounded like a couple of grammer school kids... their logic and knowledge of current affairs was so completely undeveloped that I think they were unreachable.

Sad fact is these two were better off than most people. Most Americans believe what CNN or Fox tell them. Most will only be reached when it gets bad enough, and will immediately switch off when confronted with the truth as you put it in your post...

by cstallwo 2004-11-08 03:43AM | 0 recs
At first glance, I was doubtful about your description of a conservative - but after thinking about it, I have to agree - but there definitely is a difference between Republicans today and those before Goldwater.  The Republican party used to be the party of Lincoln - and I can remember Republicans I could admire - but no longer.
by Dorothy Ligon 2004-11-08 03:44AM | 0 recs
Yes, yes, yes.  We need to make the term "conservative" as toxic as the "conservatives" have made the term liberal.  When both labels are devalued we may have a political discourse grounded in (dare I say it) reality.  Conservative means wars, deficits and jobless recoveries.  Conservative means the feds can check out what you've buying with your credit card and borrowing from your library.  Conservative means that state government can't act to protect the interests of their citizens.  Conservative means financial fraud on Wall Street and in the Pentagon.

I recognize that some fiscally conservative will feel uncomfortable and confused when the word "conservative" pushes as many hot buttons as the word "liberal."  Screw 'em.  They had the chance to redeem their party and they failed.  If they stay with their party they're part of the problem, not the solution.

by Pudentilla 2004-11-08 04:12AM | 0 recs
Conservative - a definition
Just to clear things up here (from Websters on line):
  1. Favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change.
  2. Traditional or restrained in style: a conservative dark suit.
  3. Moderate; cautious: a conservative estimate.
  4. Of or relating to the political philosophy of conservatism.
  5. Belonging to a conservative party, group, or movement.
  6. Tending to conserve; preservative: the conservative use of natural resources.

I'm one of many traditional Republicans (see the above definition) who doesn't recognize the GOP anymore.  I'm also a Christian, and it inspires me to believe in things like accountability, prudence, honesty, fairness, peacefulness, kindness, and charity.  I voted for Kerry this time because I don't think Bush represents these things.  Could I find a home in the Democratic party?
by kkblogger 2004-11-08 05:24AM | 0 recs
Re: Conservative - a definition
I maintain that America's true philosphic ethos is rooted in Pragmatism. The neo-cons are more like the Taliban than they are Wm. James or John Dewey. Prag. is a method (not an ideology) which utilizes cautious progess, proven results, and outcome-based thinking. Doesn't this sound like what true conservatives would want?
by JHGrimson 2004-11-08 06:21AM | 0 recs
Re: Conservative - a definition
Would a Democratic Party with Clinton's economics, and a strong personal freedom emphasis approach work for you?

I think there is a huge chunk of the country that doesn't like either extreme.  I vote Democratic but live rural by choice for the quality of life for my kids.  No drive-bys here.  I think there is an FDR style coalition that can be developed.  

by beeste 2004-11-08 09:49AM | 0 recs
Re: Conservatives
We need to make the term "conservative" as toxic as the "conservatives" have made the term liberal.

Exactly! Chris is so right--we are what we do. If it walks like a duck. . .Let's make the word conservative so toxic that the good people who really do favor things like fiscal responsibility will be embarrassed to be associated with it. They're swans, not ducks, but they just don't know it yet.

by Kansas 2004-11-08 08:49AM | 0 recs
Chris said real conservative are "...reckless with our tax money, and want to tell you how to live your life."

If you listen to the Repugs that is their description of us libruls.

Conservatives aren't so much reckless with our tax money as they are reckless with what they do with taxes.  They cut taxes and spend what's left on cool wars, driving gummit into insolvency, their true aim.

As for living one's life, they certainly do tell people how to do that.  They set up strictures (from scriptures) and we open gates.  We do NOT tell people to have abortions and we do NOT tell people that they have to marry homosexuals, we just allow for that rather than attempt to prevent the inevitable (and by railing against the inevitable (abortions and homosexuality will occur no matter what) conservatives have an endless font of upset by which to fuel the anger of their base).

Conservatives play recklessly with fear and anger, and they reap what they sow.  Unfortunately, they take us down with them.

by Long Haul 2004-11-08 09:02AM | 0 recs
Start a Movement
What about coming up with good slogans...some have already been thought up in this thread...and put them on bumper stickers...would maybe work best in more "red" states...

Con the people and Serve themselves

but to make Conservative a dirty word, and take back Liberal as the beautiful and positive word it is...

Jesus was a Liberal

and other sayings about Jesus...let's take back Jesus from these fundamentalist Christians who have corrupted the true message of Jesus.

by lesnussman 2004-11-08 06:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Start a Movement

I agree that we need to make the (now) misused word "conservative" a toxic word.

I think many people that identify with that word identify with the dictionary description of it. Unfortunately the current phase of the Republican party has hijacked that word and is doing the exact opposite of it's definition. Given that the word is now fair game.

Only after this word becomes toxic will the masses be open to hearing a new message (sadly).

by DetroitSongBird 2004-11-09 03:19AM | 0 recs
I don't know who to flame 1st: us or them
Nobody is going to get converted to anything by attempting to make their self-perception "toxic."

There are two significant political groups in the US that "don't get it," conservatives and liberals.

"Real conservatives do not value your personal liberties." Real conservatives do not value their own personal liberties. Rather, as God-fearing law-abiding citizens, they do not fear for their personal liberties. They trust their government. "Yes, bad things happen to innocent people every now and then, but I have my act together and they can't happen to me." Thus, when you try to talk to them about an erosion of personal liberties, they view it as a philosophic or academic exercise that should be interrupted to go check to see whether the coals in the BBQ are ready yet.

The 1st Amendment isn't all that important to them, they don't want to burn the flag; they want to pray at school, they get to picket abortion clinics, and Fox News masturbates them to satisfaction and they get to laugh at Dan Rather. If other people aren't happy about it, so what? On the other hand, they recognize that if someone else's gun can be restricted, theirs can be too.

If you point out the things in the previous two paragraphs to them, they shrug: "Maybe so, but that's the way I feel about it."

During the election Kerry didn't understand this and neither did I. We both spent a lot of energy beating our heads against the wall. It did feel good when we stopped, however.

You're not going to turn Republican voters into Democrat voters until you make the Democratic Party look good to them. Trying to make the Republicans look bad is simply viewed as an attempt to make the person you're trying to convince look bad - they're not go to go for that.

by Hex 2004-11-15 10:59AM | 0 recs
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