Vote Counting Thread

I am trying to work on some articles about vote counting, vote spoilage, voter disenfranchisement, voter intimidation, and e-voting "glitches" in this election. However, the subject is vast, and I am finding the information difficult to compile as there is no centralized location for it.

Please use this thread to help me out. Post any information you have on these topics, with links and / or other documentation.

Also, keep in mind that my intent in beginning to research these topics is not to prove that the election was stolen, but simply to document all of the existing problems with our election infrastructure. While I believe the 2000 Presidential election was stolen, offhand I do not see enough for evidence that tampering in 2004 was of a scale large enough to flip the results of either the Electoral College or the popular vote.

That said, to ignore these problems would be an act of negligence of the highest order. Our first post-election good work should be to uncover and document all of the instances in which votes were lost, improperly counted, and where people were simply denied their right to vote. Whatever you have, post it here.

Tags: General 2008 (all tags)



Information on election system ...
Chris this is a great topic.  I would recommend you browse Common Cause's blog ( and home page.  We actually have collected almost 200,000 stories of voters's personal voting experience via our voter alert line and online webforms from early voting period and through the election day.  We are going to come up with an extensive analysis in coming weeks.  Meantime, here is a brief overview of what we noticed:{FB3C17E2-CDD1-4DF6-92BE-BD4429893665}/VOTING%20REPORT.PDF

Also, make sure to browse our blog for number of election/voting related stories we have posted.  One thing for sure - our standard for Democracy should be a little higher than just being relieved that there was not another Florida or that there was no third world style violence at polling places.  We got to do better.  And we are going to keep at it Common Cause - work hard to make sure that lot of the goals set out by HAVA are actually met next time in 2008.

by MurshedZ 2004-11-06 05:54AM | 0 recs
There are some fishy occurrences
Apparently diebold gave bush 4,377 votes in a county where only 600 voted in Ohio.

Is that the only occurence?  Or was this widespread in Ohio?

Remember when Diebold said at a Republican fundraising rally, "We will deliver Ohio to Bush."
....or something along those lines.

They had to recant what they said.


by Richterj 2004-11-06 06:06AM | 0 recs
Re: There are some fishy occurrences
Chris thank you so  much for doing this. I also agree with you that I don't see the vote being overturned. But it is imperative that we present information that makes a compelling argument against electronic voting with no paper trail. The thought of regrouping working so hard for the dem party, only to surrender our votes to a system which may or may not count them is insane.

Here's a source for you: CLG (Citizens for Legitimate Government) website.

They are documenting and reporting on a lot of these voting issues. Today they have a post about Warren County Ohio which supposedly was the last county to report their votes on election night (went for Bush). The post says the election officials closed off the building and would not allow the count to be observed by anyone. How could they do this -- they cited a national security threat.

by emhansen 2004-11-06 06:18AM | 0 recs
The most basic, I guess, is

I think collecting all this stuff in one place is a great idea.  This shouldn't even be a partisan issue.  

Personally, I don't like conspiracy theories.  I think if you can't come up with real, hard evidence of election fraud (and although the exit polls are provocative, they aren't hard evidence), there is no sense in it. You won't actually accomplish anything but to look like a nut. Even if you're right.

But what bothers me is that all these conspiracy theories are floating around - and it may be impossible to prove that they're right, but it's ALSO impossible to prove that they're wrong.

In some states there seems to be a system where there is no backup and no oversight of any kind. There is NOTHING ensuring that the process is accurate and fair. That's insane. It's unacceptable, and it isn't the way we have EVER conducted elections of any kind at any time. There has ALWAYS been oversight, and a ton of it. There has ALWAYS been a way to double check. Until now.

And that means that even if the result of THIS election is accurate, the next one WON'T be. Or the one after that. Or the one twenty years from now. You put into place a system like that, and SOMEONE will use it to cheat. If not now, eventually. And there is, or will be, no way to even know that it happened. And that is completely unacceptable.

The issue is so obvious that the only possbile reason for disagreeing would be that you wish to be able to cheat.

by ignatz 2004-11-06 06:20AM | 0 recs
"there has always been a way to double check. Until now."

And you think that doesn't say something very important about how "now" differs from even the recent past??

by larryrant 2004-11-06 06:29AM | 0 recs
It is incumbent on ALL of us
to insure that the system can again be trusted.  I currently cannot trust the U.S. election system and believe that disenfranchisment was specifically targeted to communties that would tip the balance away from blind (deaf and dumb) faith to thoughtful engagement.  Think about it - in adjoining precincts in Ohio, one (very white, conservative and blindly loyal) precinct had 1 voting machine per 176 voters.  The adjacent (minority and very pro-change) precinct had 1 machine per 1000 voters.  Losing that state was not only inevitable, it was pre-planned.

We now need to work to effect lasting change in the system that will always insure fairness regardless of the party in power.  The fact that the voting system cannot be trusted strikes at the very heart of democracy.  We need to continue to put the kind of work we put in for this past election to totally revamp the voting machines.  Verifiable and auditable machines with paper trails that can be easily generated and accessed when needed.

It is truly shameful that men like Karl Rove and Tom DeLay would prefer to break trust with that system in order to gain and retain power.  What amazes me daily is the piousness of the Bush supporters yet they seemingly have not a clue to the absolute absence of morality that their 'leaders' have.  It's kind of like supporting a priest that you know has commited shameful acts over the years.  You can still forgive and love the man, but get him the hell out of a position of influence and power.  And if some sort of legal punishment is appropriate, let the laws do their work.

I now hope that the D.A. in Austin starts handing out indictments to DeLay and the rest of his corrupt Texas crew.  Seeing him in an orange jumpsuit will go a long way to restoring some trust in me.  Oh, and by the way, it will poison the Republican power structure for a few months while they try avoid him during the process.  And if by some way we can regain  the house and senate in '06?  No deals to avoid jail for EVERYONE at the top of this foundationless pyramid...


by joby 2004-11-06 06:21AM | 0 recs
Re: It is incumbent on ALL of us
Exactly right and under supplying voting machine to minority and likely democratic district was only one of a dozen methods used.

The election was deliberately stolen by these and other methods and we can not trust our system of elections any more then we can trust the power mad people who have trampled our system into worthless trash.

Everyone ought to think about what this will mean in the largest sense.

This isn't trivia even if we find the meaans used were many and difficult to trace.


by leschwartz 2004-11-06 09:43AM | 0 recs
4000 votes missing in mahoning county
First read this...

summary is lots of problems in mahoning county ohio.  That led to some races showing votes of negative 25 million, Munroe said. "The numbers were nonsensical so we knew there were problems," he said  4000 votes gone.

okay take that into account and go to the results for mahoning county

note that Kerry recieved   81,500

Now go through and check the other democratic results

The highest  who had an opponent was

ANTHONY VIVO (DEM)  with   91,735  

Now check out the other dems....they're all pretty darn high.

That's a big difference 91735 to 81500  could the votes for Kerry have be lost because of the problems?

by drummer55 2004-11-06 06:21AM | 0 recs
Re: 4000 votes missing in mahoning county
This caught my eye, because according to, Mahoning is the only county in Ohio using touch screen voting.  So anything unusual in this county should be given particular scrutiny.

The link given above to the news article seems to be incorrect; following appears to be the article that the poster is referring to:

In addition, the county election results themselves show some facts worth preserving:

An undervote for president of 1661.  It's tough to believe that so many people stood in line not to vote for president, and there's no blaming a hanging chad here.  

Probably just luck of the draw, but worth noting that Kerry's vote total very strangely landed on the very round number of 81,500.

Mahoning, which includes the city of Youngstown, is a very democratic county, which is evidenced by the lop-sided democratic margins in the down-ballot contests, and the large number of unopposed democrats on the ballot.  From the article, I see that most of the problems were in Youngstown, so it's likely that most of the missing votes, if any, are Kerry votes.

by Ron in Chicago 2004-11-06 01:10PM | 0 recs
PBD in case you haven't
A good place for summaries of this particular subject in the last 2-3 days
the Progressive Blog Digest
by Carol 2004-11-06 06:25AM | 0 recs
Re: PBD in case you haven't
here is link to article which discusses the problems with diebold's encyrption code.
If this isn't enough info, hopefully it identifies the problem in a way that someone more knowledgeable can further elaborate.

by emhansen 2004-11-06 06:37AM | 0 recs
Texas again
This email came in from Save Texas Reps this morning.
by Bean 2004-11-06 06:45AM | 0 recs
general comment
I just offer the fact that I have voted in every election since 1968, in either CT or NJ.  In these states the registration process is convenient and reliable, poll locations and sample ballot are mailed to voter before elections, there are plenty of machines, poll workers, and no long lines, and the mechanical machines are accurate.  All this happens because these states want all citizens to vote.

States like Ohio and Florida, which are sloppy and careless about all of the above, are disenfranchising the voters in those states that run clean processes.  I personally believe that in the provisional ballots and discarded punch card ballots in Ohio there could be evidence of a Kerry victory.  Either Ohio, et. al. clean up their act or be disqualified from participating in the future.  I really wish the NAACP or some other organization would pursue this further in court.

by Bob H 2004-11-06 06:51AM | 0 recs
Re: general comment
Yes. This is an important way to see it.
by larryrant 2004-11-06 07:42AM | 0 recs
Well Done, Chris
Thank you for your commitment on this important matter. Your strength and commitment are greatly appreciated by me and others who believe in this great country.
by GreyLion 2004-11-06 06:54AM | 0 recs
Seen this one?

A diarist at Kos
has some info and questions about Florida.
by Bean 2004-11-06 07:05AM | 0 recs
some fraud story links
Greg Palast on Ohio (says Kerry won)

several fraud related posts at

kos diarist notes fewer votes in CA 2004 than in 2000:

Nov, 2004:  10,315,604
Nov, 2000:  11,141,740

another kos diarist has Pennsylvania questions

another kos diarist on vote machine problems

by bz 2004-11-06 07:16AM | 0 recs
greyhound initiative problems
Chris, below was a comment to my diary, "Don't Forget About Election Fraud '04" by Belarose. Please add this to your list of instances. and AmericaBlog are good sources for opinions/facts. The Ohio glitch made minor big media (CNN/Yahoo). I haven't seen anything else on TV. We need to get this story to big media so it will help erase the Bush mandate nonsense. Thanks, JHG

Broward county (FL) Greyhound initiative

I just recieved an e-mail from a greyhound advocacy group (Grey 2K USA) which is disturbing.

It claims their ballot initiative had a narrow win as of Tuesday night and then 78,000 votes against the initiative popped up in Broward.  

From the e-mail:

"Then, mysteriously, an additional 78,000 votes appeared in Broward County. 90% of these were counted as "Yes" votes, thus destroying the greyhounds' lead. Additionally, we received reports of "computer glitches" in several other counties that changed the final vote count announced last night. All requests for a recount were denied.

Clearly, these new results are highly questionable."

I don't know if there is anything to this or not. My question is:  Is there any organization out there which is serving as a clearinghouse for  black box related complaints in '04?  I apologize in advance if this question has already been answered.

by JHGrimson 2004-11-06 07:20AM | 0 recs
touchscreen voting and vote spoilage
Evoting and E-counting is the story of the 2004 election.  See Common Dreams News Center, Nov 4, 2004 "The Ultimate Felony Against Democracy" by thom Hartmann, Lynn Landes, journalist, filed 2 complaints in US District Court for Eastern District of Pennsylvania on July 2, 2004. See lawsuit filings at Her contact info: Landes also is well-versed on AP - Associated Press the sole source of raw vote totals for the major news broadcasters on election night. AP's board of directors and Associated Press Managing Editors (APME)'s 7 members have ties to ES&S the largest voting machine in the nation... specifically, Deanna Sands, managing editor of Omaha World Herald newspaper, parent company owns Election systems and Software (ES&S). Talk to Greg Lestini and Teresa Fedor (in the Ohio Legislature) about their educational campaign to inform legislators of touchscreen voting. Teresa Fedor called for Blackwell's resignation more than a month ago.You might want to talk to Bill Moss, vP of HBCU Connect, which works to connect black colleges and universities: about long lines, paper weight of registration cards and fewer voting machines in highly concentrated black areas. Harvey Wasserman Senior editor of, co-author with Fitrakis "Twelve Ways bush is Now Stealing the Ohio Vote".  There was a huge fight around ensuring that the electronic voting machines has paper ballots and there was resistance by Blackwell, sec of state OH, so there is no paper trail. Nov 9, 2003 NY Times report of chief executive of Diebold Inc. Walden W. O'Dell, committed to delivering votes to Bush. Greg Palast is the expert on vote spoilage. See, "An Election Spoiled Rotten," November 1. With any of the computer experts, ask about GEMS and the problems with that software. David Dill, Stanford University computer scientist and Rebecca Mercuri are experts on computer software vulnerability with touchscreens.  Avi Rubin of Johns Hopkins is a computer expert on software security...did extensive study in Maryland. is Co-founder of the Citizens Alliance for Secure Elections.  http:/ and Dan Wallach, assistant professor of Computer Science at Rice University.  Wallach co-authored study with Avi Rubin at Johns Hopkins.   Bev Harris, BlackBoxVoting.ORG  (Make sure it's org!!!) Broke the story several years ago. Other information sources: Institute for Public Accuracy Sam Husseini (202) 347-0020, (202) 421-6858 or David Zupan (541) 484-9167. Jim Condit has extensive research from the conservative side showing votefraud. and and and or  November 5 commentary "Should America Trust the Results of the Election?" by Shane cory from washington "software flaw found in Florida vote machines" by Eliot Kleinberg.  My hero is Athan Gibbs, Sr. He wanted every vote to matter! He built the TruVote vote-casting system as the key to social justice and democracy in America.  See article in the, Sunday,3/14/04 by Holly Edwards, staff writer.  Go for it!!!!  Evoting is the story of the 2004 election.  But it isn't just the touchscreen machines...the software at the central tabulators is where the rest of the story lies.  Thanks and good luck!
by IdahoNell 2004-11-06 07:27AM | 0 recs
Re: touchscreen voting and vote spoilage
here is a site you might check
by bluebudda 2004-11-07 04:44AM | 0 recs
MoveOnPAC and
Chris or Jerome --

Do you know anyone in the leadership?

Can we get them to launch a fundraising drive, to support the recount initiative?

Doing so would have two positive effects -- it would be an opportunity to rally the troops, especially young first time voters; and any hint of electronic vote fraud would undermine public support for Bush's mandate.

by ck 2004-11-06 07:38AM | 0 recs
Re: MoveOnPAC and
"two positive effects -- it would be an opportunity to rally the troops, especially young first time voters; and any hint of electronic vote fraud would undermine public support for Bush's mandate."

Encourage young first-time voters, and undermine Bush's phantom "mandate": two very worthy efforts.

by larryrant 2004-11-06 07:45AM | 0 recs article on Ohio, 27 Nov
Twelve ways Bush is now stealing the Ohio vote

Note: this was written a week before the election.

by Winger 2004-11-06 07:44AM | 0 recs
article mentioning broad data analysis

"PHPSurveyor, a PHP based online survey tool is being used by Verified Voting Foundation, a non-partisan body which was set up after the 2000 US elections, as part of their Election Incident Reporting System."

by heymister 2004-11-06 07:45AM | 0 recs
5 essential primers on The Computerized VoteFraud
Chris:  See these archieved articles on computerized vote fraud vs. honest elections issue at

If you have trouble accessing at that address, go through and find "archive of primer articles..."

Here's a good snail-mail source:
Citizens for a Fair Vote Count
POBox 11339
Cincinnati, OH45211

AirAmericaRadio's Randi Rhodes (Friday, Nov 5, 2004) started a drive for $1 or $5 to be sent to Black Box Voting, PO Box 25552, Seattle, WA 98165.  Information posted on via AirAmericaRadio.

She has posted info. about a fax petition drive for an investigation in New Hampshire...Check it out!

by IdahoNell 2004-11-06 08:02AM | 0 recs
A bi-partisan group called monitored voter complaints before and during the election in Colorado.  On election day, they had a staff of about 20 taking phone calls from voters.  I would imagine they would gladly pass along voter experiences in Colorado if you spoke to them.
by thollar 2004-11-06 08:04AM | 0 recs
Another resource

If it helps, I have an extensive but easy to review database here:

by eriposte 2004-11-06 08:06AM | 0 recs
Re: Another resource
This is an excellent collection of information.

However, it is a "flat' file sort of design.

I contacted the Center for Cooperative Research and they reacted positively to archieving information concerning this issue and event.

My suggestion is that we could send in the information we have individually and that a web form which allows for indexing and search keys could be created for data entry - sort of an open source data base project.

This would make it possible when later investigative work is undertaken for example to see the ties between operatives working on voter supression and to build a case for criminal charges against those individuals and enterprises.

A flat file will not do this and we need a central ized place to gather, sift, analyze and summarize all of this information.

This would allow us to collect our efforts since now we are flying off in a thousand directions with out individual efforts.

by leschwartz 2004-11-06 10:01AM | 0 recs
link to article saying Kerry won Ohio
by kfkp 2004-11-06 08:16AM | 0 recs
by kfkp 2004-11-06 08:21AM | 0 recs
Work with League of Women Voters
Perhaps there should be some involvement with the League of Women Voters.  They are concerned with how votes are counted.
I checked their web site and noticed they have two items that I agree with.
First there should be uniform voting procedures/laws for voting. I feel it is unjust that someone in a small county can decide the method on how you vote for president, that is by electronic voting (paper trail or no paper trail) or old fashion machines.
I feel the method and the administration of all Federal elections (President, Senate & House)
should be handled at the national level by some orgainization or other, free from political influence.

Second (on a seperate issue) they also support the elimination of the Electoral College in the name of fair and democratic elections.

The instances of voter fraud would be greatly reduced and more easily managed if everyone voted using the same method.
State and local elections can be held in any manner they desire. Their elections could be held at the same time and place to save resources, but the ballots should be kept seperate. The counting would be seperate.
It may cost extra but would be a step in making sure elections were fair. If there were fewer names and no issues on the national ballot the counting I would think would be much faster, depending on the method selected.

by WAProgressive 2004-11-06 08:28AM | 0 recs

I have been following the links people are providing, and I'm noticing a pattern. X says that such-and-such official document shows that more votes were cast than voters (etc.). When I go to the document in question, however, it shows no such thing. I assume it NO LONGER shows any such thing, because I assume it has been CHANGED.


Suggestion/question: does someone out there with computer/web and legal expertise know of the best way to "capture" such potential evidence for future use? I mean, what do lawyers do when they want to preserve something they see on-line as evidence?

by quisp 2004-11-06 08:56AM | 0 recs
Please see my comments regarding Center for Cooperative Research above, if there is interest and support, this information can be gathered and saved and depending on the design, it will be searchable and usable as a research tool.

Please contact them, send in support funds and express an interest in the project, that is what it will take to get this started.

by leschwartz 2004-11-06 10:04AM | 0 recs
Demand media attention to vote miscounts
This is my letter to the editor of my local paper, the Toledo Blade. We need to write to all of our local papers to demand investigation of the DIEBOLD EFFECT.

Is a thoroughly cowed American media neglecting to pursue questions about the accuracy of Tuesday's election count? Why no follow up on the apparent inaccuracy of exit polls which foretold a Kerry victory on election night?

What hasn't been reported is that the inaccuracies of the exit polls were very specific and targeted. There is evidence that they were accurate within the expected margins of error in counties where voters used paper ballots or machines with verifiable audit trails. In counties that used the new electronic voting machines with no paper verification the exit polls were very inaccurate with respect to the final official tallies. The "inaccurate" exit polls always showed George Bush getting far fewer votes than the official counts. Why are there no counties where the exit polls 'erred' in the other direction?

Are we to believe that exit polls are always accurate where the actual vote can be verified, but just happen to be inaccurate where they can't be?  And why were they only inaccurate in one direction?

The alternate explanation is that the exit polls worked as intended and that it was the unverifiable electronic voting machines that oddly erred always in favor of the same candidate.

This issue needs to be examined by the media, and answered to the public before Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell is permitted to certify Ohio's vote. The Blade needs to be in the forefront in demanding answers.

Links with supporting information:

by nmark 2004-11-06 09:47AM | 0 recs
Re: Demand media attention to vote miscounts
We can write the mainstream media till we are blue in the face, they will not do anything.

They will be attacked and intimidated and called conspiracy theorists and "tin hat soldiers" and that is all it will take along with some behind the scenes economic threats from people happy with the status quo to completely intimidate and silence the standard media outlets, top to bottom.

Forget about the mainstream media.

This event affords us the opportunity to do something exceptional in the course of building an alternative and truely free and truely useful media with collective internet based resources.

We have to work on this collectively and must use a sort of open source - (trusted) public access and collective efforts to get this done.

This is a huge project since there are so many reports of abouse.

All of the reports have to be collated, indexed, search keys have to be identified, the data has to be entered. People will be needed to compile and summarize and analyze the information and efforts will have to be made into researching the hidden connections between the people and organization who help to steal and convert this election into a farce of democracy.

Research as to how to analyze the polling data has to be done and all of the raw data has to be collected.

BLACKBOX.ORG          (ORG) has a two plus year head start on a working approach to do some of this, a direct quote;

"We are working now to compile the proof, based not on soft evidence -- red flags, exit polls -- but core documents obtained by Black Box Voting in the most massive Freedom of Information action in history."

So PLEASE contribute money to Blackbox.ORG

and to the Center for Cooperative Research EARMARKED for THIS project.

Small donations (less than $25) can be made, nearly everyone who cares about re-establishing democracy in our country should be able to contribute something.

Please save all of your data and get involved in compiling, recording, analyzing the data that is collected.

by leschwartz 2004-11-06 10:25AM | 0 recs
Dear Chris...
...spend a day on it and you WILL be convinced that both in Ohio and even more so in Florida that the blackboxes took those 4% exit poll leads for John Kerry and "evaporated" them.

Problem is...two or three left-leaning blogs can't give this reality traction.  We NEED Wapo and NYTimes.  That is our challenge.

Good Luck.

by Blue Shark 2004-11-06 10:01AM | 0 recs
Re: Dear Chris...
Don't count on the NYT, CNN ,etc. they will do nothing about this.

We have to do this thru progressive and collective internet based organizations.

Blackbox.ORG has started a Freedom of Public Information action to get all of the raw data.

I have heard they need help from lawyers for some of this as well.

We also need a means of collecting all of tine individual reports and documentation of abuses, large and small and this is an information / analysis project similar to what The Center for Cooperative Research has undertaken on a number of controversial issues.

We need oollective, progressive organizations that are widely supported to get this effort underway.

The entrenched media will not do anything about it period. They are no better than your neighborhood car sales man who wastes you time with small talk info-trivia when trying to make the sale.

If we care about this then we can make a contribution of information, funds, analyical work and we have to do it collectively.


by leschwartz 2004-11-06 10:36AM | 0 recs
Electronic voting and ties to the right
Bob Fritakis, political science professor and Senior Editor of The Free Press, article Feb. 25, 2004, Free Press Columbus, OH.  He has researched ties of Diebold and ES&S and Sequoia to the right.
Howard Ahmanson is a Christiasn reconstructionist and major funder of the Chalcedon Foundation.  He was the original funder of Bob and Todd Urosevich's company called Data Mark which later became American Information Systems and then ES&S.  Bob left to head Diebold, maker of HAVA Act which mandated touch screen voting machines used in Ohio, Florida and elsewhere. Ahmanson family sold their shares in American Information Systems to the McCarthy Group and world Herald Co., Inc. Senator Hagel of Nebraska disclosed in public documents that he was Chairman of the Board of American Information Systems ( which later became ES&S) and claimed between 1-5 million dollar investment in the McCarthy group. Bob Uresovich was the programmer and CEO at American Information Systems (later ES&S) before Hagel.  In 1997 American Information Systems purchased Business Records Corporation (BRC) former Texas-based election company, Cronus Industries, to become ES&S.  One of BRC owners was Carolyn Hunt (Hunt oil family) which supplied money for Council on National Policy. Bob Uresovich (DataMark, American Information Systems, ES&S) now heads Diebold Election Systems.  He created Diebold's original electronic voting machine software. His brother, Todd Uresovich, is now a top executive at ES&S.  The State of Maryland was disturbed by potential electronic fraud.  They were reassured when they hired SAIC to monitor Diebold's system.  SAIC's former CEO is Admiral Bill Owens (military aide to both VP cheney and def. sec Frank Carlucci, who now works with Bush 41 at controversial Carlyle group which has interests in the UK owned Sequoia voting machine co.  Robert Gates, former CIA director is a close friend of the Bush family and served on SAIC board.  Why do we allow private companies to run our elections and count our votes?
by IdahoNell 2004-11-06 10:30AM | 0 recs
Ohio Voting Odd in Bush "Safe" Counties
Absent a re-count, I looked at the Ohio S.Ct. Chief Justice race as a rough proxy comparison.  (All figures from Ohio Sec. of State site at

Comparison Background: strong Repub, pro-life endorsed Columbus/Franklin County incumb took 53% vs. 47% for weak, but black, female, Cleveland/Cuyahoga County Dem. No lightning rod voting issues in this race.  Dem recruited to boost Kerry turnout.

For most counties, no surprises: Repub S.Ct. voting tracking Bush vote, but lagging at 80-90% of the Bush vote due to less interest in the down-ticket race.

Weird I: an almost perfect correlation of heavy Bush outperform in safe (60%+ Bush)counties, with the Repub S.Ct vote lag mostly dropping into the 60s % range.

Weird II: on the flip side, Kerry almost always polls less than the Dem down-ticket S.Ct candidate; everywhere else the S.Ct Dem vote lags Kerry in the 70-80% range.  

Of course, this data proves nothing in itself.  But it does beg for further scrutiny.

Why would the most loyal Bush counties abandon a popular, pro-life Justice by such outlier high margins?

Why would down-ticket Dems in these counties cross-over from Kerry at a 25%-45% outlier rate compared to 10% or so overall in Ohio?

The counties at issue are the border counties along the IN down and across the KY borders: Paulding, Putnam, Van Wert, Mercer, Auflaize, Darke, Shelby, Miami, Butler, Warren, Clermont, Brown, Adams, Lawrence, Meigs. (16 of 88 counties)

I believe (don't know) that these are mostly punch-card counties, so question would be the machine reading calibration?

I see nothing unusual in the counties' registration or turnout numbers.

Anyone know demographics in this area that would explain?  (Holmes county is similar, I've seen comment that anomalies there are due to high Amish count which tends not to vote top of ticket.)

Also, anyone know which Ohio counties use different voting methods?  I've seen all but 13 to 17 use punch-card, but nothing specific to each county.      

by Pete McE 2004-11-06 10:42AM | 0 recs
Re: Ohio Votes Odd in Bush Safe Counties

"The Democratic Party in Warren County is so disorganized, that at least half the precincts have no committeeman and the party has no office or telephone listing."


Hard to resist a thumb on the scale when no one is watching?

by Pete McE 2004-11-07 03:38AM | 0 recs
Re: Ohio Votes Odd in Bush Safe Counties
Update II:

The Warren County commissioners locked out the public and press and conducted the vote count in secret.

We are supposed to accept that thousands more Warren County voters (27,288) approved of gay marriage (voted against the amendment) than voted for Kerry (25,399).

by Pete McE 2004-11-08 04:02PM | 0 recs
Message just sent to Daily KOS
The election has just been stolen with a broader range of dirty tricks than any one of us has ever seen before and you are carrying on like nothing has happened.

It will not matter at all who we nominate for minority leader or for any elective post for that matter as long as our elections can be trampled on and stolen by a dozen methods.

We need resources like Daily KOS  - NOT TO BE COMPLACENT and have a "business as usual" approach now.

We need to marshal public contributions of money and energy and information into the effort to re-establish our democracy.

Its not just an election that has been stolen, our democracy itself has been stolen.

If that matters to you then do something, make a peep, to help us restore our democracy.

KOS you have to get on the right side of this issue and the time is passing beyond which you and Daily KOS are going to be relevant to anything or anyone who is knowledable about the real state of politics in the US.

You site has become a urinal wall where people come to write their names in piss.

I don't think a site where people bloviate about the irrelevant ad-infinitum matters anymore.


by leschwartz 2004-11-06 11:02AM | 0 recs
A fair and accurate count
Chris - your admirers will appreciate the work you will do on this - and there is no need for us to apologize for wanting the truth - George Bush may have actually won - but the accurate count is important for lots of reasons, e.g., How big is the mandate?; What are the true statistics so as to develop the correct Dem demographic strategy for the future?; Why wouldn't we want to demonstrate to the voters of this country and of other countries that we can hold a fair and honest election?
Thanks, Chris.
by Dorothy Ligon 2004-11-06 11:02AM | 0 recs
Let us not underestimate....
...the sheer numbers of people on line, bloggers we know and others we don't, who have been capturing information about all this.  Provide a valid central holding tank for info, encourage people to fill it with reliable evidence (vs. speculation) and make its existence known to the Josh Marshall, Miami Herald, David Corn, Palast, Herbert/Krugman and others, and the mainstream media will "discover" fraud and error if it exists.

Blogland has worked this way in the past -- fed the mainstream with the goods. It can do it now.

This isn't about whether Bush or Kerry won.  It's about quitting pretending that we have a reliable voting system.

by Bean 2004-11-06 11:24AM | 0 recs
New Blog
Who Really Won?

With some of the 'greatest hits' of the possibly stolen election:

by EastFallowfield 2004-11-06 12:18PM | 0 recs
Data for Election Incidents
There are downloadable files on election incidents at this site

Click on research/maps and you can click on the state and/or type of incidents.  There are descriptions of incidents for each case; browsing through the files gives you an idea of the magnitude and scope of voter suppression that occurred.  Especially look at the election day incidents.  Heartbreaking!

Here's another item you might want to look at:
Browsing through the Cuyahoga County election summary page it turns out that some precincts have greater than 100% turnout.  Many of the precincts with too many ballots cast are in very rich areas; how many votes am I talking about? According to my calculations they added up to 97,489.  You have to do a little work to see this; the file gives you ballots cast by precinct, and later on gives you registered voters.  Later on in the file is percent turnout.

by Phredd 2004-11-06 12:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Data for Election Incidents
Can you post or send me a file with your analysis, or at least point me to the specific precincts in which the tunout is more than 100%?


by cct 2004-11-07 06:04AM | 0 recs
Re: Data for Election Incidents
OK, I think I understand what you are saying.  If you go to the election summary page, and compare registered voters to ballots cast you find the following areas with more ballots cast than registered voters (in order of decreasing bizareness):










    BALLOTS CAST STRG WD3    12108





















Spot checking with the canvas report, does not seem to bear out these numbers, so I am really puzzled.

If anyone understands, it would be great to get some insight.

by cct 2004-11-07 01:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Data for Election Incidents
Sorry - The election summary page is
by cct 2004-11-07 01:48PM | 0 recs
association for computing machinery
The Association for Computing Machinery (ACM), which is the closest thing we have to a professional organization for computer scientists, issued a press release to go along with their public statement about electronic voting systems.  I strongly recommend reviewing it.

Here is the text of the recommendation itself:

Virtually all voting systems in use today (punch-cards, lever machines, hand counted paper ballots, etc.) are subject to fraud and error, including electronic voting systems, which are not without their own risks and vulnerabilities. In particular, many electronic voting systems have been evaluated by independent, generally-recognized experts and have been found to be poorly designed; developed using inferior software engineering processes; designed without (or with very limited) external audit capabilities; intended for operation without obvious protective measures; and deployed without rigorous, scientifically-designed testing.

To protect the accuracy and impartiality of the electoral process, ACM recommends that all voting systems-particularly computer-based electronic voting systems-embody careful engineering, strong safeguards, and rigorous testing in both their design and operation. In addition, voting systems should enable each voter to inspect a physical (e.g., paper) record to verify that his or her vote has been accurately cast and to serve as an independent check on the result produced and stored by the system. Making those records permanent (i.e., not based solely in computer memory) provides a means by which an accurate recount may be conducted. Ensuring the reliability, security, and verifiability of public elections is fundamental to a stable democracy. Convenience and speed of vote counting are no substitute for accuracy of results and trust in the process by the electorate.

It would be a huge mistake to think that this is all a tin-foil hat conspiracy theory.  Very serious people are well and truly alarmed about it.

by s9 2004-11-06 12:48PM | 0 recs
Graphs Show the Problems
First time here. I'm very concerned about this. I tend to be a pic person. These 2 graphs that show the discrepency between exit polls and the results with and without paper trails is remarkable.. check out these two links:

by sandifl 2004-11-06 01:43PM | 0 recs
Stories on
I've done a number of stories on my website on this, I even crunched some numbers in Ohio and found that Bush probably added 200,000 votes in e-voting counties:

by jakewhite77 2004-11-06 06:23PM | 0 recs
PA is VERY suspicious, may be the key!
Chris - It's great that you're taking a look at this, we need somebody who understands polling, statistics, who can crunch numbers and has strong analytic capabilities to take this thing on.  I originally posted a diary at dailykos on PA, and I really think that PA could be the key to this whole thing.  Why?  Because the final results in PA were way more out of whack with the exit polling than even Ohio or Florida were, and the final polls in PA before election day also gave Kerry a much bigger lead than the actual results did.  And, as best as I can recall, the actual vote tally was heavily running in Kerry's favor for much of the night, and then suddenly went into a close race after most of the precincts were in.  Details below.  I believe that we are overlooking PA because we eventually won it, but the movement of the numbers is very telling and it should be part of your analysis.  

The original diary I posted at dailykos is below:

Can PA prove the Voter Fraud? Need Help!
by markusd
[Edit Diary]

Sat Nov 6th, 2004 at 06:51:56 PST

Of all the states in question, PA may be the most suspicious of all, even though we ultimately won it.
Why do I say that? - because the final polls had Kerry up by around 5 to 8 points, and the exit polling data had Kerry up 60 to 40!  And THEN the ACTUAL numbers coming in for much of the night had Kerry at 60 to 40 over Bush too - as late as 10 PM, when over 60% of the precincts were in.  That is based on my own recollection as well as others who were watching as well.

Diaries :: markusd's diary ::

And then I saw the final numbers for PA were Kerry 51, Bush 49.  WTF?????  Realizing that the numbers do change some as different areas come in, this seemed like a pretty radical change from what was happening most of the night - and it's usually the larger, big city precincts - mostly democratic - that come in late, so if anything the numbers usually move in our favor as the night goes on.

What would REALLY be helpful is if anybody has videotape or TIVO that can confirm the huge Kerry lead in actual votes that I saw at around 10 PM, and would show exactly how many of the precincts were in.  Bush would have to have won over 70% of the vote in the remaining precincts to get to 49% of the total, and I just think this is really, really suspicious.  Maybe they tried to steal PA but the lead was just too big to overcome without it being too blatant in the e-voting precincts.  Who knows?

But the point is that we should not just look at the states we lost, but any state that can help us prove the fraud.  Once we prove it anywhere, that gives us leverage to look at it everywhere.  If PA provides solid evidence, let's not overlook it.  

If you have videotape/TIVO of election night to review, please post a comment with specifics as to Kerry's leads in PA, the time of night, and the percentage of precincts that were in, and the dkos fraud squad can get on the case from there.

Also, if you just remember this the same way I do, please post a comment to that effect.  I am pretty darned sure but would like as much confirmation as possible.

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by markusd 2004-11-08 03:20AM | 0 recs
General comment on this topic
Maybe there was fraud this year, and maybe there wasn't.  Surely there must be some way to find out.  Looking over the various lefty blogs, all I see, apart from wailing and gnashing of teeth, are reports, or rumors, of apparent anomalies in one county or another in this state or that, and appeals for help in unearthing still others.

What I want to know is, are there any grownups in charge of all this?  Kerry bowed out, understandably, and the party apparatus is apparently not active.  So, who's taking up the slack?  Bev Harris comes to mind, but can we take her seriously?  Does her group have the resources it would take to have a real impact on the situation?  More importantly, do they know how to do it?  Do they have the necessary skills and grasp the enormity of the task?  More especially, do they have enough lawyers, and have they figured out what sort of data would actually be helpful and what to do with it?  (If so, I and many other would happily contribute funds.)  ...  Alas, her plea on a Democratic Underground Forum today for miscellaneous folk to put up yard signs, hold house parties, or even, without any training, make stabs at investigating irregularities, doesn't inspire confidence.

A really serious effort to collect and analyze relevant data would lead to one of three outcomes: (1) an interesting report about widespread, but collectively inconsequential, irregularities and injustices that might help pave the way for future reforms; (2) formal challenges in Florida, Ohio, and other states, aimed both at changing the final EV totals and correcting the final PV tally; or (3), if the results come together too slowly for (2) or it's not possible to get them into court, a major delegitimating embarrassment for Bush, leading perhaps to the appointment of a special prosecutor and ultimately to impeachment or resignation.  The sky's the limit (if not the probable result) - but only if some serious people get involved and devote serious time and effort to the cause.  Such people might need to be paid.

Just a thought.

by Mike in Arizona 2004-11-08 11:28AM | 0 recs
Supplement to my earlier comment
When I asked whether any grownups were in charge, what I meant to suggest was that we're not going to get anywhere if hordes of people, some trained and some not, approach the vote-count matter freelance.  What we need is central organization and direction, with some serious talent at the helm.  Otherwise, we'll just have heaps of miscellaneous info - some useful, some not; a combination of good stuff and pure crap - with no hope of getting it evaluated realistically or doing anything worthwhile with it.  (The relevant fantasy would be having George Soros put dozens of lawyers on the case, including former prosecutors.)

It's also important that this effort get going right away.

Does anyone have any ideas?

by Mike in Arizona 2004-11-08 12:14PM | 0 recs
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